Visitors to the Alcoholism site here at The Mining Company debated the issue of whether or not to use the Lord's Prayer to close 12-step meetings on the bulletin board for several weeks. Here are some excerpts from that debate:
Written by Aussie Chuck on Thu Jan 22
In Australia there is no AA (or other 12th step) meeting that I know of that would have the audacity to include the so called Christian "Lord's Prayer". Not only is it against the tradition of non-affiliation but it forces those members who are Catholic or Protestants to choose between the prayer's wording ('Who/Which, are/art...for thine is etc). It is divisive, discriminatory and is itself contrary to the rest of the AA program which stresses non-religious but rather "spiritual" nature of our program.It is a selfish 'gimmie' prayer (gimmie forgiveness, gimmie daily bread, etc) and the supposed author of the prayer stressed that His followers shouldn't pray in public but rather pray in secret in their homes. So He doesn't even want this to be done at meetings!!!
USA AA's should find out how those outside the USA feel about this bad USA habit especially when they put on international conferences. I was appalled in 1990 in Seattle at the AA International Convention when thousands of us from all over the world were virtually forced to stand and endure this USA pietistic nonsense. Afterwards I was told that even in many places in the USA, especially where there are Jewish members (as in sections of New York) have opted to refrain from offending those of us who do not believe that this prayer belongs in AA.
My advice to those who are in the minority on this issue is to remember that AA's 12 Concepts give special rights to minority members. Don't stand for the prayer! Sit quietly. Don't hold hands or hold hands as you see fit but don't stand and don't say it. Remain silent and don't bow your head. But don't duck out or leave the room or the effect is lost. Meeting after meeting persist and resist. Sure some will resent your action at first but later they will admire you for your standing by your principles.
You will find that eventually other like minded AA's will join you and sooner or later there will be very few or no one saying this. And, yes it takes courage, but AA's integrity is worth it.
Think of all those who came to an AA meeting, were impressed with us and thought about joining us and then heard that non-AA Christian religion prayer and then left, never to return, perhaps to die. Oh sure there are those who will say "The God bit chased them out but the booze will chase them back in." But you and I know that's BS. Not everyone who was chased out will live or will return (especially if that particular sectarian prayer is recited. Refuse to stand for it, and remember, you are not alone and it is for the good of AA as a whole! Day at a time.
Aussie Chuck
Written by rider on Thu Jan 22
I too was suprised when I first heard the Lord's prayer at the end of a meeting. I wondered what kind of "cult" I had gotten into. But I saw AA working in other's lives and was willing to do anything to end the insanity, though I didn't understand it at the time. Today there is much contoversy about it. some say it is trying to force religion upon people.Alcoholics will rebell aginst anything until the pain is great enough. My understanding today is that the Lord's Prayer sums up the whole program. We are asking God to supply our needs, give us forgivness, give us strength to follow through with the spiritual growth required for a happy joyous and free life. Ever since AA started people have been trying to deny God. The phrase higher power grew out of that. It was 4yrs before I could call him God. What is neat about AA sobriety is that I have come to realize a God personal to me and who works miracles in my life. I'm sticking with the Lord's Prayer.
Written by JimAA1 on Wed Jan 21
The Lord's Prayer is a powerful one and is applicable to a broad range of spiritual orientations. The messages of growth and community are worthwhile even without a God consiousness. The positive influence toward a manner of living that promotes sobriety is reason enough to continue the tradition of closing AA meetings with the Lord's Prayer.Written by pepper on Wed Jan 21
There is a move in the Puget Sound Area to diminish the use of The Lord's Prayer in a lot of meetings. That is just the way of movements of our sort though. The further you get away from the foundation that the founding fathers built the program, the more watered down it gets. All you have to do is to go back and read the history of the first few years of AA and you can hardly recognize it as the same organization.The same phenomonem has taken palce in the Church. I can harldy see much of the 1st century church in any place I go to worship.
I think this is one of the reasons that the Christian 12 Step movement is beginning to gain some momentum. Even though I struggle to get the 12 step message to Christians on a local level, I see it happening on an national level. God said that if the believers did not do the job, he would raise up the rocks to do it instead. I don't plan on letting the rocks do my work, how about you?
Pepper
Written by Frank on Wed Jan 21
Great topic. It really has not come up in my area yet... and I stress the word yet. Funny thing about this is that I felt like you in regards to this being a spiritual and non-religious program. I often wondered not only about the groups claims of being open to everyone but how the non-Christian members felt about it mainly those that are Jewish. There is more denial in the Jewish faith about alcoholism and drug addiction than in any other religious order.When I chatted with some people about this, the pointed me to a wonderful site here on the web. I would like to share it with you and the others here.http://www.jacsweb.org/Library/Literature/peloni.html This is written by a rabbi for the above stated reason and he mentions that if the Lord's Prayer is taken literally it can pertain to almost any religion and it can also be traced to the Old Testement. He also mentions that many people choose not to say it because they still want to feel seperate and different. He suggests that Jews in recovery DO recite the prayer until they are comfortable in AA or any 12-step program. Just thought I would drop this off for others to read. Hope this finds everyone well...
Peace and Love
Frank
Written by Aussie Chuck on Fri Jan 23
Dear Frank,It is indeed a wonderful site which you pointed us all to visit. It is instructive that the variouys Rabbis quoted are evidently of the Reformed persuasion rather than the Orthodox or other more strict types. And yet the site also has a rabbinical "Response" or official opinion which absolutly states that a good Jew should NOT be reciting The Christian Liturgical Lords Prayer. And these are the Rabbis who are most accomodating to the world as it is (ie: female Rabbis etc), not the ones who are more traditional!
Your personal wondering of how the saying of that particular prayer affects other non-Christians shows you to be a very caring and sensitive person. Other non-Christians are often scared away from AA in the USA because of the religiousity of many AA's and no matter what one says, any organisation which claims to be non religious and says the Lord's Prayer is rightly or wrongly perceived as religious rather than of the educational variety. This is not "attraction rather than promotion" unless USA AA is trying to attract only Christian drunks.
The January 1998 issue of the Grapevine has a Susan B who is (on Page 5&6) asks why if we don't think it appropriate to study the Bible in an AA meeting "Why, then, is no one concerned when we say a prayer from that same book." She also mentions the AA principle of Inclusiveness when she points out "But AA should be a place for all to feel like they belong."
It is quite comfortable for all religious persuasions and for those with none at all, here in Australia and in most other countries of the world, where the "Our Father" is never said at AA meetings.
Thanks again for your pointing us to a window on how others of a particular non-Christian outlook have to struggle to get and keep sobriety amidst the hurtful defiant adamance of certain US Christian AA members. It was a real eyeopener.
Day ata time
Aussie Chuck
Written by Aussie Chuck on Fri Jan 23
Dear Bean,We are so glad that you had/have such a good Sponsor who could help you see beyond the discomfort you felt as the Christian prayer words were being said at the end of the AA meetings when you first arrived at our rooms. Other Jewish Alcoholics and other non-Christians of course are not so fortunate and they are put off forever by these ritual Christian words. Sadly many drink and die and kill and injure and maim others as they harm themselves further because some of us in AA forget our primary purpose and create an unecessary obstacle in the non-Christian's path. From where I stand it is broke and needs fixin'. I hope you will consider lending support to those whom you mention are discussing this in your area. We must always be tolerant and inclusive in every way possible.
Cheers
Aussie Chuck
Part I | Part II | Part IV
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